If you worry about the amount of time your children spend in front of the TV or computer screen, and wonder why they’re not spending their time playing outside like you used to, you’re not alone. However wanting your kids to get outside more and being able to drag them away from the dreaded screen, without tantrums or sullen faces, can be an arduous task.

Playing in the Great Outdoors is not only great for children’s mental well-being, it also helps physical fitness as well as developing their immune systems. Not to mention the long-term life skills associated with understanding more about nature. But telling your children it’s ‘good for them’ simply won’t cut it when their favourite TV programme is on or they’ve almost completed their favourite computer game.

And if you do let them outside, their safety can often be a worry as often the last thing they want to do is be seen hanging around Mum and Dad.

So, how do you convince your children that playing outdoors is not only better for them, but also more fun than being sat in front of the box? What’s the best way to ensure your children are safe when you eventually get them outside, without cramping their style? What can you do to make nature ‘cool’ and something they want to learn about and embrace?

For all the answers to these questions, and more, TV nature Guru Chris Packham and Natural England Strategic Health Adviser Dr William Bird join us for a web TV show for the ultimate answers to these questions.

Chris Packham and Dr William Bird join us live online at www.studiotalk.tv on Thursday 20th January at 14:30 to discuss the best ways to get your kids outdoors and back to nature.

For more information visit www.arla.com\closer-to-nature

H: Lis Speight, host
A: Chris Packham, TV nature guru
B: Dr William Bird, nature expert

H: On today’s show we’ll be discussing ways to drag your kids away from their TV and computer screens

Titles

H: Hello and welcome to Parent Talk, I’m Lis Speight. Now if you worry about the amount of time your children spend in front of the TV or computer screen, and wonder why they’re not spending their time playing outside like you used to, you’re not alone. However, wanting your kids to get outside more and being able to drag them away from the dreaded screen without tantrums can be an arduous task. Well Arla’s Kids Closer to Nature campaign has been launched to hopefully tackle this problem. And joining me today to discuss this and more is TV nature guru Chris Packham. Welcome along Chris

A: Thank you

H: Really great to see you today, and nature expert Dr William Bird. Welcome to both of you, really good to see you. Coming up – persuading the kids to turn off the screens, practical guidance and safety tips and all your questions answered here live, and we are live today so we’d love you to get involved. All you have to do if you want to send in a question or a comment to either of our guests, is to pop it in the box that’s on the screen, press submit, it’ll come through to us here and we’ll try to get through as many as we can during the course of the show. And if you’re on Twitter and you fancy Tweeting us, use the # tag studiotalktv and we would love to hear from you. Now then, let’s get cracking, there’s been this new report commissioned by Arla which shows that on average a child spends 16 hours a week in front of a screen – TV screen or computer screen and just 8 hours outside, while a quarter of children rarely or never play outside. Now then William these are pretty worrying statistics aren’t they? Statistics – I can never say that word! Pretty worrying stuff this isn’t it?

B: It is worrying I mean I’m a GP as well and obviously the health of children is of paramount importance, and getting outdoors is one way of getting children really healthy. You’ve got the physical activity, but they’re also less stressed, they enjoy themselves, they socialise, they become more resilient, they’re more robust – you know they fall over, knock themselves, they pick up dirt you know all that stuff is actually really good for getting a stronger child, for getting a developed child. So if children are staying indoors all the time they’re not getting all that resilience and we’re starting to see rickets – I mean unbelievable

H: My goodness

B: Considering how long ago – Victorian times – you’d get it. But that’s because children aren’t getting the sunshine and we’re finding children are not getting the bone development, we’re not getting the muscle development of coordination, so children being indoors all the time, or a lot of the time, is certainly not good for health – both mind and body.

H: And it’s free to go outside at the end of the day isn’t it?

B: It’s free and it’s great, they enjoy it, as you know Chris has been inspiring people – children – to go out, they absolutely love it. Once they’re out there and they know what there is, it’s not like a medicine, it’s something which is really positive for them

H: And we do have different childhoods these days though don’t we Chris? What sort of childhood did you have?

A: Well I thought it was a childhood that was normal and it might have been at that time but it’s certainly changed. My parents I don’t think were in any way irresponsible, but they did allow me to jump over the fence when I got home from school and roam in the films behind the house, and you know the mantra was be back by dark, although I was invariably late, and then I was able to cycle the lanes of Hampshire when I started studying animals more formally. But I mean times move on, there weren’t the distractions certainly – we obviously didn’t have computers and there wasn’t that much on television, and the roads weren’t so congested and filled with traffic so cycling was safer for me than it would be for young people today. So we have to accept all of these things, some of which form constraints. But the countryside is not a dangerous and dirty place to be, that’s –

H: Well it can be dirty but that doesn’t matter does it?

A: Well no as William says, dirt is essential part you know, developing immunities, it is an essential part of that, and kids are robust and resilient things and they need to explore. They have natural curiosity in many areas, and they certainly have it, as I did for wildlife, and unless you, you know reward that first hand, you know then you don’t develop this deep affinity for it, and we’ve learnt that unless young people get an affinity for nature and wildlife before they’re 9, it’s not something they carry throughout their lives

H: Oh that’s interesting.

A: Yes

H: That’s quite a worrying thought actually so we need to get them quite young then don’t we?

A: We’ve got to get them young, got to hook them young, they can move away from it, but basically at some stage in the future when one of my successors comes knocking on the door, asking for help in conservation issues or whatever else, then basically if they’ve got, if they recognise the value there because they’ve enjoyed it themselves then they’ll help protect it. The one thing is for sure that it will need future help and protection

H: Yes. And it’s important as well, particularly these days with a lot of inner city kids, that kids know where their food comes from, they understand how farms work. I mean some children really don’t’ know where milk comes from. It’s important to get out isn’t it and actually see how the countryside works

A: Well it’s context isn’t it, and as you say they don’t know what produces milk or how often it’s made. These things, you always thing they’re apocryphal stories but – and sadly they turn out to be true, and there’s a great disconnection actually not only between young people but adults too, and the sources of their food. How that food’s produced has a massive impact on the countryside, the wider environment and therefore back to my wildlife, and obviously we are hoping that we can ask and encourage and pay for our farmers to produce better quality food, and for a more sustainable rural landscape. And if people want to pay more for it, and we’re going to ask them to do so, then they need to be reassured where it’s come from, and you know that’s part and parcel of the experience

H: Yes

A: You know so on farms, in woods, in streams – we’ve got to get them out there, we’ve got to get them in touch with it. They’ve got to feel it, smell it and hear it for themselves

H: Absolutely. But, we all know what kids are like, Scooby Doo’s on or whatever, they’re half way through, they’ve just got to the next level of their certain computer game. How do you encourage them to drag them away from the screen? You can’t just say come on it’s good for you, how do we do that William?

B: I think we just have to – well first of all you have to obviously have a parent going with the young children under the age of 9, and you take the plunge, you just go out to a – you go to a green space. One doesn’t need to go miles away, most people live near some kind of green space, you know even if it’s just on the edge of the garden, it’s getting them interested now. But if you want to get children into a park or into a bit of wild green space, it’s starting to get – learning about a few bugs and a few flowers and starting to teach them – getting a leaf and saying you know which leaf, which tree did this come from and they run around and try and match it with a leaf. It’s those small things that children start to enjoy, and then they start to get involved themselves and then actually the whole essence of children going outdoors is that they start to take the imagination themselves so parents can just move away a little bit, they’ve got them out there, and then as the child gets older they get more and more comfortable. It’s almost like getting a relationship with the outdoors

H: Right yes

B: Children start to get more confident, they start to know it, they start to feel more comfortable. So there’s that introduction, the first introduction whether it’s a grandparent or parent or an aunt or friend or someone – that’s what we have to do

H: So grandparents, that’s quite a good point actually, it’s quite a good place for grandparents to get involved, because grandparents don’t really do computer games generally do they? Chris, it’s a nice one for grandparents to get involved - go blackberry picking –

A: Exactly

H: Plant potatoes and things like that-

A: Just go for a walk, it doesn’t always have to be focused in the sense that it’s just a question of going out there, maybe walking to school, walking to the shops if you have the capacity to walk through a green area, a park in your area. But other than take them in the car, you know take them for a walk and en route try and find as William says some of these things and show them. It’s – children’s curiosity is so furious, so powerful that it takes very little to instigate it. One of the things – very many simple things to do, one simple thing we did with our own little girl was to have a scrapbook, and she could s tick anything in it, and she chose what was in it, and little later we gave her a snappy camera and she would take photographs, and they were mostly out of focus but it didn’t matter, because they were something that she’d made through her own observations and it was a means of me getting her to look for things for herself, rather than me point them out

H: Yes

A: And we cut them up and stick them in the scrapbook too and she’d stick in feathers and leaves and even a beer label that she found with a bird on actually which was rather good

H: Ah bless!

A: Anything there and these were part and parcel of our environment, and it wasn’t a wilderness, we lived in a sort of suburban area, it was just pieces of green space, you know

H: And these are the things that kids remember, they’re not going to remember watching the telly, but they will remember going out with grandparents and falling in that stream or whatever, won’t they? Is that so William?

B: Well it is, when I speak at conferences it’s often a very eminent, you get these professors and doctors and so on, and I say put your hands up if you think about the place where you remember where you really felt safe and you can remember to this day, and I say right was it indoors? Was it outdoors in the kind school playground or was it a little nature place? Always, about 80% it’s a little nature place

H: Oh that’s lovely isn’t it, that’s quite interesting

B: And you feel sort of, you know these very tough people start to soften and remember this

H: Yes, oh it’s bringing a tear to my eye!

B: It is instinctive and you’re right, it is you know, it’s that connection that children will remember as adults they’ll remember that and hopefully then they can go back and people as adults actually if they have got that connection under the age of 9, they can use the nature as a way of de-stressing, as a way of relaxing which if you haven’t got that connection you don’t know where to go, you haven’t got that, so it is a fantastic resource for the rest of your life

H: Yes. But talking about being safe, in a particular place, it is an issue isn’t it, I mean it’s not just a kind of stranger danger, but if you’re used to living in a block of flats and you suddenly get dumped in the country, there are a few sort of points aren’t there? What sort of safety points should you take with you?

A: Well I think children have to have the ability to explore for themselves and discover their own limits, so you know people say they mustn’t – I mean we went recently to a – I was on a ramble and there were parents there with their kids and I said you know – I climbed over the gate, and some of the kids climbed over the gate too and then eventually one of the parents said oh come on, don’t do that, you might fall off. Well how will the child ever know how far it can go before it falls off? And the likelihood of serious injury falling off a gate as it turns out is pretty slim, so yes there might be a few tears, but then next time they’ll hang on

H: Yes

A: And this is about – this is about things you can – teenage, she’s a teenager now- there are certain things you can, you can advise, but there are certain things you can’t teach them for themselves you’ve just got to sit back and think –

H: Just let them go

A: They’re going to make a mistake here whether it’s falling off a gate or doing something else, and learning through that experience. The other thing is I think that there has been, I perceive it’s very difficult because obviously I’ve only lived through my own lifespan, a great increase in the media’s preoccupation with potential social dangers out there

H: Yes

A: IT didn’t appear to be prevalent when I was a child. I was told don’t’ talk to strangers; don’t take sweets from strangers, and these were devices which warned me to be secure within a zone of adults that could be trusted. And I didn’t talk to strangers and I didn’t take sweets from them, and that was the advice that was there. I think these days there are – parents are under so much assault over some terribly tragic events, that they quite naturally feel they don’t want to risk their children’s health and welfare, and the temptation is to not let them out of their sight, but it comes with equally or potentially dangerous consequences too – health issues, and well-being issues

H: Yes you’re actually damaging your children by over-protecting them which is a shame isn’t it?

A: Yes it’s about getting the balance right, and there are many - if you don’t trust your children, in a space where they can explore on their own, and you don’t believe it’s safe for them to do so, then there are many other opportunities for young people to explore under supervision, limited supervision sometimes, the natural environment. Many of the charities have youth groups and they are properly organised, and well-respected and secure places where young people can take their kids and people will take them out and show them this and that and the other in terms of a means of instigating and exploring their curiosity for the natural world, so yes sometimes you can do that, but I don’t’ think there’s any real substitute for you know taking them to a piece of parkland or woodlands, having a picnic and then letting them go off 200 yards

H: Keep your eye on them

A: Keep your eye on them, you know do that, and if they’re in the brambles they’ll learn they’ll cut their legs. If they meet a stinging nettle they’ll learn it hurts, and if they fall off a tree they’re climbing, they won’t do it next time

H: We’ve all done it, haven’t we? Or most of us hopefully. Right let’s get back to the Arla Kids Closer to Nature Campaign because there are some grants available aren’t they? Tell us a little bit about that and how that money would be used and how that might benefit children?

A: Well yes it’s very exciting actually, it’s a step in the right direction, we’re hoping that the project will expand in the future, but there’s a website that Arla have very kindly set up called kidsclosertonature.co.uk and the website itself has plenty of ideas for parents and for young people as how they can get closer to nature, but it also supports the grant scheme, and grants are available up to £1500 per project and the project quite obviously has to involve a means of getting kids closer to nature. So it could be clearing out a pond in the school ground and the application comes from the school, or it could be a local piece of woodland and it could be a community group who want to put up bird boxes or bird feeders or make a nature trail. So it’s open to absolutely everyone as long as it ticks the boxes Kids Closer to Nature and that’s the website, kidsclosertonature.co.uk. Ideas and of course applications for the grants

H: Ok fantastic. Well it sounds like a good plan and if you’ve got an idea well why not get on the website and have a look? You never know you might get a grant; you might be just the ticket. Ok well coming up next we tackle all your questions live

Break

H: if you’ve just joined us welcome to Parent Talk. My guests today are here to explain about a new campaign to get our children away from their computer screens and back out into the natural environment. Let’s take some of your questions now because we’ve had quite a few in. First one in from Dimelza, she said “I used to love picking blackberries as a child and it’s inspired me to get an allotment which is a great way to enjoy the fresh air at the weekend as well as being rewarded with home-grown food. I highly recommend it.” More of a statement there from Dimelza, so allotments, there’s been a bit of a resurgence in allotments actually hasn’t there? Have you got an allotment Chris?

A: I don’t have an allotment but we did when Megs was younger have a vegetable patch, I have no green fingers as you can see. As it turned out nor did she, but one thing –

H: But you had a go and that’s the point isn’t it?

A: Exactly, and kids love watching things grow, you know I tell you what I say kids but I think you know, I can still sit back and over a period of a very short space of time, a few days, when you see something growing or maturing, sometimes a plant, sometimes an animal, the metamorphosis, you know a caterpillar turning into a butterfly – I’m nearly 50 years old, it still – I understand that science but there’s still something of a miracle in there

H: Yes absolutely

A: You know so yes, growing things, an allotment – good place to meet other people with a similar interest, there’s a real community sense in allotments

H: Yes

A: And of course the health of producing your own food, and as you were talking about earlier, knowing exactly where it comes from

B: For health it’s brilliant, I mean it is its absolutely fantastic, for mental health because people relax and there’s something to do, there’s physical activity, the social side is really good. You see people at allotments they all kind of work together don’t they?

H: Yes

B: They kind of protect each others, there’s a real good of esprit decor there which is fantastic

H: It ticks a lot of boxes on the health front doesn’t it?

B: Ah it certainly does and you can see older people who kind of carry on with an allotment, they just go on forever, they’re brilliant

H: Yes absolutely. And if you can make – grow your own food these days, food’s so expensive that really helps doesn’t it. But you don’t have to have an allotment, or you don’t have to have a huge garden, just like a tomato plant on the windowsill or even like a sunflower just in your little patio. Sunflowers are fantastic for kids aren’t they, anything like that, getting kids involved?

B: Just watching it grow and I think from – we set up the Green Gym which was to get people out there to do conversation work but also to get the benefits of health, and in the schools it’s been fantastic

H: Yes

B: In that children have seen a bit of wild area, bare soil start to develop and they can see all these things coming through and that is something they may remember again forever more

H: Absolutely

B: It’s so important to them, they feel they’re connected, they’re part of it

H: And it’s good for adults too at the end of the day isn’t it, it’s not just the kids, it’s nice to get the whole family involved with these things isn’t it?

A: Of course again that’s a strengthening thing

H: Yes definitely. Ok another question in from Lucy Kramer – “Chris I’m simply terrified by the prospect of bumping into spiders while I’m out in the sticks. I’ve even considered professional advice about this as my phobia is so bad. Can you help?”

A: Well you could get professional advice. Arachnophobia which is one of our commonest phobia is a learned phobia. It’s not an inherent thing, we don’t come with it. And it’s understandable given there are so few dangerous spiders in the world, none in the UK. But it’s a serious issue for some people. If you can’t go through life and avoid spiders, and you want to explore outside and you want to get your kids into wildlife, then it might be a problem and I have seen people undergo courses of hypnotherapy which has worked, I’ve seen people, one lady actually, we gave her a loop video as it was at the time, and she had it on her television, so whenever she was in the house she knew that there were spiders on TV. And then we gave her a spider and she put it in the room where the washing machine was, so every time she did her washing she knew she’d have to go into a room with a spider in a jar, and then we gradually built up her exposure to spiders, initially predictably, she always knew where it was going to be so she could think about it, go in and deal with it. And you know at the end of this course which went on for about 3 months, we made a film about it, she ended up holding a tarantula

H: Yes so there is hope

A: Oh no there’s a lot of hope, but what I will say is you shouldn’t tease people with this phobia, it’s a very real thing, more male suffers than females

H: Oh interesting

A: Oh it’s not a girly phobia, it’s a blokey phobia, and also you know if you can’t avoid spiders and you don’t think that’s a course you want to pursue, without being patronising or in any way insulting, get professional help

H: Get some help yes

A: Yes

H: Because you’re missing out on a lot at the end of the day aren’t you?

A: You’re missing out on 460 very interesting British species of spider actually, one of which is living in my kitchen at the moment. The great Dolomedes Raft Spider which is a spider now get this, I’m going to go into natural history mode here, this is a spider you can find in over much of south and central England that actually catches fish. It goes up to the edge of a lily leaf –

H: You’re frightening me now!

A: Puts its feet in, teases the surface of the water by vibrating, little minosan sticklebacks come up to see it and it plunges up through the water and catches fish – in the UK!

H: There you go you heard it here first

A: And that’s an exotic animal

H: I don’t know whether it helps you Lucy or not, but anyway the fish-catching spider, I’m sure you haven’t got one of those in your house! Right moving on, we’re nearly out of time actually, last question, from TCW – “what unusual pets would Chris suggest family might have beyond dogs and cats to help children understand a little bit more about creatures. I’m thinking a tortoise, maybe some other reptiles.” Any suggestions?

A: When it comes to pets I like interactive animals, I don’t actually think that spiders and some reptiles make very good pets. They’re not very tactile, they don’t come when you call their name, they don’t fetch sticks and they don’t, essentially, in many instances like being handled so they become an exhibit in the room. Dogs and cats tick a lot of boxes – dogs need walks, they both need specific care, they both largely we hope, safe with children, and they’re both easy to keep. So I think that the best pets for kids are ones that they can genuinely interact with. When they get a bit older, if they have a specific interest in insects and reptiles and things like that – I had a bedroom full of reptiles when I was a kid, you know, but that’s fine, but initially I think it’s about what’s furry,

H: Yes

A: What – how they behave

H: Something that loves you back a little bit

A: Exactly

H: Yes, yes ok

A: So dogs are great I think, you know I have dogs and I walk them twice a day when I’m at home every day – good exercise for me, I wouldn’t get much else otherwise, and good excuse to go out in all weathers and of course one of the other things we’d say is if you have children, you’ve got a dog, don’t leave them by the TV – put their coats on and get them to help walk it too

H: Yes. Is it the British weather – William last comment from you – the British weather doesn’t do us any favours really, but getting out and getting a bit wet doesn’t do you any harm does it?

B: Oh no if you see the big smiles on people’s faces, it’s always when it’s raining, that’s when they come back and they say “we’ve done it”

H: Kids and puddles

B: Covered in mud as well, and it’s funny how with dogs we always think they’ve got to go for a walk, we don’t say that to the children do we?

H: No exactly

B: We feel we must take the dog for a walk, but actually we must take the children as well

H: Kids as well. Look thanks so much for coming in, both of you, it’s been really interesting, really inspiring stuff. And if you’ve been inspired to get out there, get outside and get closer to nature then you can go to the website which is kidsclosertonature.co.uk. And why not put on your rain mac, put on your sun hat, get outside, get out into the great outdoors, it’ll do you the power of good. Thanks very much for watching and we’ll see you next time. Bye bye.