Why do you go to work? Is it for the money, the career development or is it because you love seeing you colleagues and the buzz of the office? According to this year’s edition of the Vodafone Working Nation report, for the young generation that’s set to become tomorrow’s office workers, it’s very much a case of the latter. However, they also worry that new tech and new working practices will force them to miss out on the things they consider important about work and are looking forward to: making friends, learning from colleagues and enjoying their jobs.

85% of 16 –20 year olds believe that hierarchy is vital to create order and worry that working from home alone would leave them bored with no interaction with colleagues, the part of work they find most attractive.

To discuss the importance of community at work, we are joined by Eugene Burke, business psychologist. As technology enables more flexible working styles, there is increasingly less of a requirement for a physical office but does that mean less personal interaction? In this special webchat, Eugene Burke will be examining the vital ingredients that will constitute ‘the office’ for tomorrow’s workers while discussing too how we can celebrate & nurture community in the office in the current financial climate.

So log on to the chat for a reassuring assessment of today’s workplace and a positive glimpse at its future.

H: Host, Mark Ryes
B: Ben Taylor, Vodafone
E: Eugene Burke, Business Psychologist

H: Hello and welcome to the Business Show, I’m Mark Ryes. Now then new technology continues to increase the choice of ways and places in which we can work, and as a result remote flexible and decentralised working is on the rise. Now while many businesses are embracing it, clearly it won’t be for everyone all of the time. Many will think that those most ready to take on the changes in the way we work will be the tech-savvy youngsters, assuming them to be defiant go-it-alone types. However the latest edition of the Vodafone Working Nation report reveals that this isn’t necessarily the case. Joining me today to discuss the report and how the technology will affect the future working lives of today’s young generation is Eugene Burke who is a business psychologistBen Taylor from Vodafone. Guys thank you very much indeed for joining us. Do you think that the office really could ever become extinct?

B: Well the survey shows that it probably will never become extinct. I think there’s always a need for a place for people to meet, to talk and to collaborate, and generally to share the best ideas that they can. Now that might not be the traditional office that we see today. It might be an area that people could meet. It could be a café or even just the informal structures around people’s homes, but there will always be an office environment.

H: Eugene one of the interesting things in the report for me was that young people go to work, yes for the money, but two for the social aspect of it. I’m not sure bosses would like to hear that would they?

E: I think they would actually. I think most companies, if you’re going to have satisfied employees you’re going to have people who actually do want to come to work and they want to come to work because they want to work for you, and part of that is going to be very clearly driven by the people that you work with, so if companies are good at selecting and building skills into people, they’ll build communities within the company as well, which keeps people in the business too. So it actually makes sense for bosses to have that there because it reduce s their costs if people leave.

H: Of course one of the big things that we’ve been talking about over the last few years is the way that mobile technology and technologies outside the office can help us work from home, help us work from the coffee shop, all kinds of places all the way around the world, so that we don’t need that centralised base. So you’re very much of the opinion that we really do?

E: No I agree actually I don’t think the office will go away, and I don’t think even if you’re working at home for example you’ll have a place where you have to work, and work is fundamental to our existence anyway. I think what technology does is it opens up more channels for communication. It makes the work more fluid and more organic if you like as well, so whether you’re in an office or not, the technology enables you to communicate more effectively and at times when it’s necessary to communicate, where perhaps in the past without technology you’d have more barriers to communication between people as well.

H: We were just talking about before the show, we remember times when before there was computers in offices, before there were mobile phones in offices, so the technology really has aided us both inside and outside the office Ben?

B: Yes I mean it’s allowed us to work from where we need to work from. I can remember a time when if I couldn’t get to a telephone, or I couldn’t’ get to someone who could type something up for me, it couldn’t happen, and nowadays I can work from where I’m best placed to. I mean a great example is sometimes I work in London, sometimes I work in Newbury where Vodafone’s based. Sometimes I work from home. What I need to do is have a place where I can go back to as my hub, which is, at the moment, at the office.

H: So is conferencing from wherever, be it in the office, be it at home, be it in the coffee shop, is conferencing technologically the way forward?

B: I still think there’s no replacement for face-to-face meeting and human interaction. We do our best work when we’re meeting people together, we do our best work when we’re talking to each other. What flexible working does, and some of the products that Vodafone offers allows you to do, is to do that wherever you need to, not just in fixed spaces.

H: Some bosses worry about too much social interaction. Got an interesting question in from Ben who says “do you think that less social interaction amongst co-workers could lead to a decrease in performance?” Because less time is spent talking and learning about the job tactually, if indeed that’s what they’re talking about.

E: I think in theory possibly yes. I think it depends very much on the nature of the work they’re actually doing. I mean some of us have to at times work on our own, but yes I mean if it’s team based working which increasingly it is, then I think it’s important. But I think it’s the nature of the interaction. And the technology I think as well doesn’t make it an excuse just to communicate for the sake of your communication. I mean I often think that emails very often are the conversations I wouldn’t have had if I hadn’t met that person in that corridor.

H: And text as well I guess.

E: And texts as well. And sometimes I think, you know, if you’re going to use these communication channels more effectively you need the same discipline and the same communication skills you would have had with face-to-face as well, so I think conferencing is very important, I mean in this day and age unfortunately with costs, and travel costs, it’s going to be a key part of what we do, but I think you have to have a good reason and a good way of using that technology to have the impact and to get the end result that you’re actually aiming to get, rather than simply doing it for the sake of doing it.

H: I did hear of one boss who sent, surprisingly an email saying if you’re going to email the person who sits next to you, don’t, tap them on the shoulder and actually say hello. That’s the social interaction that we’re talking about isn’t it? It’s don’t just rely on the technology.

E: I have four rules with email, I mean I’m a psychologist, I manage psychologists and yet there was a period when they kept sending me emails, so the fact is they could have knocked on my door and come and had a chat with me, so I think you do have to make sure you use those, that technology more effectively, otherwise you just flood everybody with emails or texts and everything else. Just makes life more difficult.

B: It’s certainly incumbent upon both employees and employers to set the ground rules as to how you use these things. Email wouldn’t have exploded in the way it has if it wasn’t a useful technology. It very much evidently is, but it’s very much about using it in the most appropriate manner and in the most appropriate way for the culture of your business. Some businesses work differently.

H: But Ben some years ago, I mean we were all talking about the fact that mobile working would destroy the office. There would be no central place apart from a managing director maybe sitting in his ivory tower we were thinking, where workers would never go and it would be if you did need to go to the office it would totally be hot desking. That notion seems to have gone away a little bit.

B: It’s not really gone away, there’s still certainly a lot of theories out there about the virtual office and so on, and I still think that there are some relevant points made. I suppose what we’re saying is that mobile working, flexible working certainly is something that people want to do. But they also want to learn from their colleagues, they want to collaborate, they want to do many things that are just natural human instincts, and so you need to structure your work policies and the way that people are employed and the way that they work whilst in your employment, to allow them to do things and the best way for them to achieve results. And if that is having a base, have a base. If it’s that you have to form virtual teams and use technology to do it, and then do it that way, but you have to adapt the technology to your culture and not the other way round.

H: And of course that’s actually relatively easy in this day and age, when you’re either based inside or outside the office Eugene isn’t it?

E: I think so. I mean I agree totally with Ben, whether you’re working remotely or not will depend on a number of things. One’s the business model, the structure, organisation, nature of the role that you’ve actually got. But I think also if you look at the results of this survey and the work that’s been done, when people talk about flexibility, I don’t think – they don’t mean I can work whenever I want to work, I have a contract which says I tell you when I give my labour. I think what it says is there are ways in which people are looking to manage their work and contribute in different ways, so I don’t think the office will disappear but some roles, yes I mean they do have to work remotely and that communication piece is critical. Sales for example is a classic example – people have to go off and sell things, you know so –

H: Do you think bosses are worried that if we completely lost the office actually they wouldn’t get the productivity?

E: I think it depends on the business model as well. I mean there’s some new business models where there is no virtual, there is no place of work per say, but I think bosses themselves are pretty wise. I mean some of the leading people in that survey can see there are changes. I think it’s the change they will reflect in their businesses that will drive value and success in their business, rather than simply gosh the office has gone and somehow they’ve lost something.

B: It’s about setting objectives. Effectively. So rather than worrying about the 9 to 5 elements of the work and attendees –

H: And how many people actually work 9 to 5 these days anyway?

B: Quite and how many people, you know, move their hours around to suit –

H: Exactly.

B: Their lifestyle, and actually the survey looks at the people entering the workplace are very concerned about having that structure, as you move through your career it becomes less important and you want to be able to structure the achievements that you are to produce around the rest of the working day. And it goes back to this productivity. So if you set appropriate objectives for achievement, then it doesn’t actually matter how you achieve it. If you expect people to attend the office then sometimes those objectives might not be met.

E: I mean I think, if you go back to the idea of an office, a big office block and you go back to you know Yes Minister days with the civil service and all that kind of thing, the contract was you turned up at 9 and you went home at 5. And you took a tea break at 10.15 and you took a tea break at 3.30 and I guess I’m showing my age now by mentioning this, but these days a contract is not just with a person and an organisation. A contract is with a person and a manager. The contract is with a person and colleagues and how people manage that contract I think is more fundamental. Turn it round the other way, good managers have always been able to manage that contract. Good teams have always had the ability to work and establish personal contracts between each other.

B: Exactly.

E: To be effective. So if the communication helps that, it does make life more flexible, but given the fact you just said now we don’t always work 9 to 5, given the world is getting to be more dynamic, we have to be more flexible, so if flexibility becomes part of our natural working life then it becomes part of our natural working life.

H: I want to go back to the point in the survey that says young people are particularly concerned that they go to work for pay and then they go to work for socialisation. All about work / life balance of course. David sent us an interesting question saying “it’s going to be very hard in the future for people to strike that work / life balance, with everyone no doubt at the end of an inbox whenever and wherever. How will firms manage this and let their staff have a life outside work?” it’s difficult but it’s not impossible I would have thought.

E: I don’t think it’s impossible. I mean I think yes, there’s always a struggle between work and life balance, and I think part of that will be driven by the individual. Those who are very goal driven, they will more on the edge of, if you like on the balance of work. Good bosses will have to keep an eye open for that, that they can manage that so people don’t burn themselves out. People who are more values driven perhaps will go a different route, but I don’t think there’s one simple prescription, I’m sorry to say on a short TV show, there isn’t one simple answer to that. I think a lot will come down to a good manager making sure they can help people achieve that.

H: But this is what Vodafone has found isn’t it, it’s the grey areas of that working that you need to concentrate on, that managers need to concentrate on, all the time, that actually give you more productivity.

B: Exactly. I was just saying, I mean I have several mobile working tools. I work for Vodafone and therefore it’s inevitable. It is about self-discipline, it’s about saying it’s the weekend, I’ve checked my emails this morning if that’s what I wanted to do, and now I’m going to devote my time to the family. It is about that relationship between not only myself and my manager but also myself and the culture of the organisation and what they expect from me. And a lot of people entering employment are looking at the culture of the organisation they’re going into and selecting appropriately.

E: Totally agree.

H: And it was never a question of yes I’ve got a mobile phone so I’m available 24 hours a day.

B: No it wasn’t in certain roles people are more available than others and again it’s about the self-discipline and about the understanding of your cohorts and your managers.

E: But do understand though there is a cost. I mean if you’re going to aim to be very high in an organisation, you have also to accept there will be demands on you and in fact people will need to get to you so therefore there will still be choices but those demands will still be there.

H: Good question’s just come in from a web editor apparently. “While flexible working is liberating and enjoyable you can run the risk of missing out with social interaction with colleagues that’s imperative for bouncing ideas off. Can you offer any advice on the best mix of both?” But I guess that’s what we’re talking about, it’s the mixture of partly in, partly out.

E: Can I give you one example? And this is where I find technology really interesting. This is a person who is a self-employed individual and a consultant to the IT industry, and do a lot of design work. Now this person has access to Skype, ok?

H: Yes.

E: Now what this person does is this person has colleagues in California, northern Europe, various other parts of the world, and actually what happens is they’re using Skype as a means of continuous contact through the day. So these people come in, they switch their Skype on, their microphones are there, they’re not actually in the same physical space, but they’re in the same psychological space, so they can say for example, I’ve just got an interesting email, good question here – and they can have that interaction almost as if they were together. So for some people perhaps that might help to build up a community that way.

B: If you look at the survey I think half of the people we asked said that they wanted, that work was about the social elements of it – not necessarily socialising, but the fact that they came together as a community, whether that be virtually or not, it’s an important element of what we do as workers.

H: I think that answers the question, that was from the Jobs Web Editor of the Guardian.

E: Oh ok

H: So an important one there. Is technology coming through, this is a question from Sam – “is the technology coming through for remote working going to continue to develop and get better?” At the moment she says it seems a little hit and miss in areas. I’m assuming that is the onward tide of technology and that is the job that you’re looking forward to?

B: Oh certainly, I mean I’ve been working remote working technology for many years now –

H: Let’s just say what we mean by that. Not only mobile phone, not only things like Palm tops and email –

B: Carry our Blackberries – my favourite thing! Laptops with mobile broadband connections.

H: Of course.

B: We’re moving rapidly into lap tops with mobile broadband connections that are already built in, so you don’t have to worry about plugging the double – it’s just there. It will continue to evolve, but it needs to evolve at the pace where people are using these things. So mobile broadband has taken off in an enormous way, and every – because people can clearly see the benefit of it.

H: It was the piece of technology that people were waiting for.

B: Yes.

H: I think so that laptops and other computers could be used on the move.

B: Wherever. Yes and it will continue to evolve, but it needs to evolve in partnership with our customers, and what their requirements are.

H: Bob asked an interesting question and this is really the crux of the matter – “are we moving towards a really totally remote workplace with no interaction with other human beings or will that trend stop?”

E: I don’t think it’s a trend that’s going to stop and – I mean I don’t – the difficulty is there will always be meetings, there will always be a need to sit down and discuss something as Ben said earlier on, so I don’t think we’re going to see a complete collapse and all these empty office buildings everywhere. There may be more of a kind of – as the report mentions, café community and things like that, and if you go to some of the major banking institutions for example, they already have meeting pods around the place that almost feel like a café.

H: Yes.

E: So even – either workplace, you know even if you’ve got remote technology, there’s a more fluid, more organic way of creating an environment where people can actually exchange and talk to each other. So I don’t think it’s as simple as it’s suddenly going to go away. I can’t see it myself anyway.

B: It feels like it’s about blending – it’s about blending what works for you in the best possible way.

E: Yes.

H: On a lighter side, a lot of people, and from a psychologists side I’m sure you –

E: Yes.

H: You’ve heard this before. A lot of people say they meet their life partners at work, from that social interaction. Are we in danger of losing that –

E: No.

H: And becoming a single society?

E: No I don’t think work’s the only thing we do, I think work’s a fundamental part of what, you know gives us meaning in our lives and gives us purpose. Hopefully also, we also have networks outside work, so whether you meet your partner in or outside work I think as long as you meet the right person and have the right objectives that you share together, that’s the most important.

H: Nice cross-generational question just come in by the way, from Mark. He says “I think the office is the only place that old and young people actually mix any more, and it’s where they learn from each other –

E: That’s interesting.

H: – if we all worked on our own, how would we learn?”

E: I think that’s a very astute and interesting perspective. It’s a good point actually, possibly with the guide of change in the way we operate socially, and certainly the decline of the large extended family in certain parts of our communities, maybe that’s a good point actually. And it’s also as Ben mentioned earlier on, exchange of experience, the ability to talk things through and share that, without being too didactic, is pretty fundamental to how people develop and I think it’s the other way round as well, if you look at some of the research looking at younger people, they are certainly more emotionally astute than previous generations. They’re more switched on on that front, when you turn that round the other way it means there’s more of a demand on bosses to learn how to work with those younger people and meet those demands, so if they’re projecting their generation’s values and perspectives on younger people, they won’t necessarily get the best out of them. So that interaction goes both ways I think as well.

B: I’m very glad that point was made, because it’s exactly what the report draws out is that it is a place for mixing of age, cohorts and sharing experience.

H: And that of course is what makes a business successful at the end of the day isn’t it?

B: Indeed.

E: Absolutely.

H: Eugene and Ben thank you very much indeed for joining us.

B: Thank you.

E: Pleasure.

H: Now if you want more information and to check out the report itself go to workingnation.co.uk and thanks very much indeed for joining us this afternoon. Bye bye.